Mazda CX-5 Forums
Technical Section => Engine/Transmission/Powertrain/Exhaust => Topic started by: Gazdkw on March 21, 2017, 10:27:08 pm
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Hi, I hate joining forums with the aim of begging for help but needs must and I'm in need of some advice with our cx-5 that we have owned for 7 months and covered 5k miles.
The car is the 2.2 diesel and has 113k on the clock. We purchased the car because my partner was starting university and we needed a reliable car to make the 30 mile trip everyday and to get the kids to school/childminder etc.
Anyway on Tuesday the car randomly flashed up oil pressure warning then that went andenfine management light warning came up. She lost power and so she pulled over and called AA. The AA scanned the car with the following codes
PO55F - unknown
PO524 - unknown
P06DE - engine-oil pressure solenoid valve component stuck closed
We have taken the car to AA chosen garage (Bedworth MOT test centre) and they have said they swooped the oil pressure switch with a cx-5 they had in at the moment and it made no difference so they investigated further and it needs and engine rebuild and new turbo. He said the turbo had oil starvation.
We are really screwed here because our AA warranty only covers 2k repair bills and the garage mechanic said they already had a cx-5 in at the moment for same issue and the bill is 12k!!
We can't afford anywhere near that and are really stressing out here.
We would really appreciate some help if possible
Many thanks
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I suspect the oil starvation is caused by the camshaft poor case hardening that fills the oil channels with swarf and bits of camshaft. Usually the turbo is the first to suffer from the oil shortage. As the camshaft is a known problem I think Mazda uk should help with the failure, but due to your mileage and the fact that it's not now serviced my Mazda you will be unlikely to get any goodwill. Your best bet is to ask the AaWhat they think is the way for you to proceed, but definitely tell Mazda uk that you are unhappy about having to suffer because of a known problem and see what they suggest.
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Thankyou for the reply. Iv sent Mazda an email and I can only hope for the best. We are really worried as we cannot afford to pay such a huge amount to repair the car. We are still paying for it monthly. I really don't understand how they have come up with a value of 12k. The car only cost us 8k!
I wonder how much it would cost just for a replacement engine rather than an engine rebuild.
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If you got a replacement engine it would still need a new turbo plus any other ancillaries that have suffered from lack of oil. Good luck with it anyway and keep us informed.
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Just spoke with the garage. They said turbo had lots of play in it due to oil starvation. He explained he has quoted 8k for new turbo and complete stripdown of engine to find cause and fix and rebuild engine. I explained that we could in no way afford the 6k difference with the 2k the warranty covers us for.
So he said we could go down the recon engine route but it's a dark road with recon engines and the warranty's they come with. They would charge £1300 for turbo fitted and £1000 for labour of fitting a new engine. A recon engine online is around 2k so there's still £2300 we would need to find.
He did say you could fit a turbo and the car would drive but how long the turbo would last because the cause of the starvation would still be present.
The other option is we get a turbo fitted and take it somewhere else for a second opinion and investigation for the starvation. Doing some research it looks as though short trips causes problems with the oil and diesel contamination. Also Like already mentioned the camshaft problem is possible.
Is there any way to rule any of these problems out?
What advice would you give?
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Might I ask how long a warranty did the selling dealership give you? I don't know the time scale applicable in the UK but I would guess a standard period should have been included in the sale agreement.
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Really feel for you, this is very unfortunate. There's a lot of documented history of oil contamination and oil pressure problems with earlier models but these were 'solved' by Mazda by a software update and a different dipstick. Did the garage that sold it to you do those updates? If not is there some liability on their part even if it's now out of their warranty?
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but these were 'solved' by Mazda by a software update and a different dipstick.
I think the only change that was brought about by replacement dipsticks (now marked with an 'X' above the usual top full mark) was to give an indication of the maximum allowable oil/fuel contamination tolerance. It didn't actually do anything about curing the problem of oil dilution in the first place and a lot of owners - me included - thought it was something of a gimmick anyway as there are still reports of oil dilution taking place although the indicated oil level in the sum is nowhere near to the 'X' mark.
I've yet to read of anyone actually getting anyway near the 20K kilometres service interval before an oil change was indicated and would be interested to read of any member actually having achieved this.
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I think the modified dipstick with the higher x mark was just to stop people going to mazda for a free oil change so soon. The main dilution mod was really a couple of software updates and now the dpf regens happen much less frequently and for shorter periods.I dont think the cx5 has any capacity for passive regens though only active however you drive. I would think a better method of diesel injection would be directly into the exhaust manifold as then there would be no way for it to enter the sump and dilute the oil, apparantly some makes use this method but it needs an extra injector and control equipment. Mr car does mainly long journeys and the sump level doesn't change from one oil change to the next although thata only 8-10k miles as i only use it on average once a week.
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The dealer offer 3 months, but there is a 6 month period that you can make a claim within which puts the responsibility on the garage to prove the fault wasn't there when purchased, however we are now 3 weeks over that period and the responsibility lays with us to proove the problem was there. Just spoke to the garage and he said you couldn't tell that. He said once oil starvation happens it won't be long before problems like this happen so I don't think there is a way we can proove there was a problem prior.
We are really upset as it looks as if our only option is to sell it as is or pay the difference 4K for a recon engine or 6k for engine rebuild, neither of which we can afford. Finance company are not interested unless we can proove the fault was there on purchase. Cheeky dealership said "well you have covered 10k miles" so apparently 10k costs £9000 these days!!
We both just feel sick right now
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I think you need to get them to do a bit more investigation first.
I would ask them to drop the oil from the engine and confirm if there is swarf present in it. If there is, then that suggests the problem is the documented camshaft issue. In which case i see no reason for a new engine. Replacement of the turbo, vacuum pump (something else that often fails as part of this problem), camshafts and any other associated parts and a thorough flush through the engine and removal of the sump to clean the oil pick ups etc... to remove the swarf should be fine. They can then test oil pressure around the system before rebuilding.
i havent seen it written anywhere that this problem causes excessive wear to piston rings or rod bearings etc... so i see no reason for the whole engine to be replaced. Sounds more like this garage is going for the scatter gun approach of replacing everything in the hope of fixing the problem!!!
If there is no swarf present in the oil when they drain it then they should be looking for the reason why there is oil starvation at the turbo, again, no reason the whole engine need be replaced!
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I believe that's exactly what they are doing with a 8k quote. Kinda like saying give us 8k and we will piss in the wind and see what direction it goes.
We have just looked and we have actually only covered 4K miles since purchasing the car! Really let down.
I feel like there is a good chance the engine has no real damage. The AA man himself said it sounded fine and he picked up 2 Mazda 6 last week which he thinks have the same engine and they had same fault and they sounded like an old taxi, it was knocking so loud!
What's the possibility of putting a turbo on, and following the procedure mentioned above? Sump off, thorough flush, new oil, new filters, etc
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Not trying to make light of your situation but this looks like a similar problem, however, they reckon it might just be an oil pump/belt issue :o
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mazda-CX-5-Sport-D-/232279553702?hash=item3614f0b6a6%3Ag%3AmRcAAOSwYXVY0lfv&_trkparms=pageci%253A6638690a-0f2c-11e7-b233-74dbd180bad5%257Cparentrq%253Af740c94115a0a2ab856b4fa9fffb3797%257Ciid%253A15
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I seen that earlier today. How do you know they think it's a belt?
It's funny because someone else told me they have 2 belts, one for the cam and one for the oil pump. The oil pump one is prone to snapping. Plus one of the codes is actually an electrical fault which could be the oil pump not turning and so highlighting no electricity??
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It was in the description:
"It was a very economical car and very reluctant to get rid but as already mentioned I just dont have the time or money to get it fixed (Potentially its only a oil pump/ belt issue.)"
Sorry, I didn't mean to get your hopes up, it was a bit of ill-thoughtout levity on my part. I may well be wrong but I was just highlighting the old 'it's an easy fix but I don't have the time' chestnut. Experience has taught me to stay clear of such claims and based on your experiences it sounds more likely very costly.
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It's no problem. Tbh it's not the first time it's been suggested as a possible cause. We are debating taking the car to a garage we trust. Warranty company will contribute towards hourly rate
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Thought I'd share an update. We had the car towed to a garage we trust on Saturday.
Spoke to them on Monday and this was the reply
Tested the oil pressure and it read low, the oil was s**t so changed the oil, flushed the engine and changed the filter and now the pressure is mid gauge so on the right track. now need to run the engine and see what happens at different rpm
Hopefully this could be some good news
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Thought I'd share an update. We had the car towed to a garage we trust on Saturday.
Spoke to them on Monday and this was the reply
Tested the oil pressure and it read low, the oil was s**t so changed the oil, flushed the engine and changed the filter and now the pressure is mid gauge so on the right track. now need to run the engine and see what happens at different rpm
Hopefully this could be some good news
Hopefully this is the start of some good luck for you.
Please continue to keep us informed.
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Well it's not the outcome we was hoping for. The garage said he drove it 4 miles and the low oil pressure light came on again.
So they have taken the oil filter out (that's a new one they put on Saturday) and it had loads of swarf on it.
So it looks like there is a bigger problem. I think this falls in the camshaft problem issue. Would you agree?
Was this fault admitted and dealt with by Mazda? Was there a recall? Services bulletin?
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There is an absolute mine of information relating to the Camshaft problem here on the forum.
Might I suggest that you do a search from the Homepage using the keyword "Camshaft". There are many many results you should look through including this one.
http://mazdacx5forums.co.uk/index.php?topic=552.msg4057#msg4057
Does your car fall into the VIN range ? If it does then it Should have been checked at some stage IF the car had been taken into a Mazda dealership.
I would check your VIN number and proceed along those lines. As far as I know, there was no recall or service bulletin issued.
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yep my car falls within the VIN range.
So you say it "should" have been checked if the car had been taken to mazda. What does that mean? does that mean that if the car had been taken to mazda (which it did for a service 10k miles ago) that they should have highlighted the issue? fixed the issue?
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https://flic.kr/p/TkgqUo
Last serviced by Mazda on 24/08/16 at 21,807 miles, including oil and filter change.
Oil level always at the top dot.
Awaiting inspection by the dealer today.
Ho hum ......
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I think I am safe assuming that as you only bought your car 7 months ago it has had least one previous owner or maybe more. Hopefully at some time in it's life it will have gone into a Mazda dealership for a service or warranty issue. If it has in fact done so, after the issue with the improperly hardened camshaft head was recognised, then it should have been checked. Exactly what was involved regarding rectification I am uncertain. I do know that it involved a complete engine flush and oil replenishment.
If I were you, my immediate task would be to contact your nearest Mazda dealer armed with your VIN number and get them to check on their database to see if your car has been checked. Your next action can only be based on the result of that enquiry.
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It was at a mazda delearship 10k miles ago for a service!
Would this problem have been present before 10k miles ago or does it happen quite suddenly?
If the problem was present 10k miles ago then they would have seen the swarf in the oil and around the filter
Many thanks
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I don't know if it would have been evident 10k miles ago (I suspect no-one could say with certainty that it was evident then) but I'm pretty sure the known problem was known at that time, so if your car is in the VIN range affected the Mazda service agent should have done whatever was required at the time of your last service as a preventative measure. Have you got access to the electronic service record? It should say what updates etc were done and when.
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https://flic.kr/p/TkgqUo
Last serviced by Mazda on 24/08/16 at 21,807 miles, including oil and filter change.
Oil level always at the top dot.
Awaiting inspection by the dealer today.
Ho hum ......
Turned out OK. Oil was diluted so as a gesture of goodwill Mazda did a free oil and filter change and applied the software update which reduces the regens (a TSB was mentioned but didn't get any details). Also updated ECU with latest firmware.
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I'm going to speak with Mazda tomorrow and see what information they have. If someone was told of the fault in the past or that the car was within the bin number range then I may have a case of saying I purchased the car wth a known fault.
I also want to see if Mazda had done any software updates
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Out of interest – did you buy the car outright from the garage or is there any finance involved. If there is money outstanding, then a finance company has an interest in the value of the car and may be able to put pressure on the garage to resolve things
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Finance. I spoke with them last week. They wasn't very helpful. They said the only thing they can do is open a case that we purchased a faulty car but we would need proof that the car was actually faulty at the time of purchase or we can hand the car to them and they will auction it and we pay the difference between. We are going to talk with trading standards today and take this further
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Finance. I spoke with them last week. They wasn't very helpful. They said the only thing they can do is open a case that we purchased a faulty car but we would need proof that the car was actually faulty at the time of purchase
Well that's easily enough to check. Contact Mazda again and check whether they have a record of the recall having been executed. If not, then the selling dealership is at fault in my opinion for not checking whether there was anything outstanding on the vehicle.
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Probably not what you want to hear, but - when this happened to me - there had been no recall issued (still hasn't as far as I know, it's probably not regarded as safety related) and I believe that it was decided by Mazda to only "fix this issue if it occurs". Mine was under warranty at the time fortunately so was sorted straightaway. FYI, the CX5 doesn't even appear on the DVSA recalls list http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/default.asp (http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/default.asp)
The net result of that, if true, is that there are a lot of early models changing hands now with an inherent problem which may or may not have been sorted. As knowledge of this problem becomes known, these vehicles are going to become unsaleable unless Mazda agree to sort it irrespective of age or warranty status. If a good solicitor got involved, a group action on behalf of affected owners might be the way forward?
Alan
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Well we have a slight update. The dealer we purchased the car from (v12) have rang the garage where the car is at the moment. They asked the mechanic if he would fit an engine if they supplied one. He told them unless it comes direct from Mazda he ain't doing it, to which they replied that this now causes an issue. They then said they purchased 4 of these cx-5's and they have all come back with the same problem!
This pretty much confirms the fault was there on purchase!
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We have had a setback.
Where did the range of vin numbers come from that are effected? Was it released by Mazda?
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Found these two videos on Youtube explaining the problems of Mazda 2.2 Diesel Engine Failures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOwRPfb_A3k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th58DpEIX98&t=2s
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The information regarding the VIN numbers was originally brought onto this forum by an ex member passing on information from elsewhere. Whether this turns out to be a case of passing on erroneous information or not I cannot answer. But here are the origins.
He first published the information here http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/109297-volvo-xc60-or-mazda-cx5/ ................. post number 16
and then posted it in this forum here http://mazdacx5forums.co.uk/index.php?topic=469.msg3392#msg3392 .................................. post number 6
Please remember that information posted here, or anywhere else, is subject to interpretation. It may well be factual and can be relied upon, but it is always a case that there maybe an element of error.
I believe there have been members who have been successful in pursuing justice armed with the information you have. Perhaps one of those can come forward with further help.
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Whether this turns out to be a case of passing on erroneous information or not I cannot answer.
What !!!!! Fake news on this forum? Surely not. ;D ;D ;D
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Well I suppose it did originally come from the home of the fake ..... oops sorry of the brave :)
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I'm abit confused now.
I thought the swarf was caused by improper hardening of the cams? Those videos seem to suggest it's a combination of dpf regen/injector seals/carbon and diesel/oil mix?