Mazda CX-5 Forums
Technical Section => Engine/Transmission/Powertrain/Exhaust => Topic started by: MikeTB on July 23, 2014, 03:54:37 am
-
There is an interesting comment in the manual about oil levels.
"If level rises above the maximum then an oil change is required" (not the exact wording)
Can anyone explain this?
-
I read that this is caused by scavenged diesel in the DPF being recirculated back into the sump. Some info here http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=102168 (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=102168) and here http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2012/medium-4x4/mazda/mazda-announces-fix-for-cx-5-oil-problem-34231 (http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2012/medium-4x4/mazda/mazda-announces-fix-for-cx-5-oil-problem-34231) although it appears not to have been raised as an issue in the UK as yet.
Alan
-
This is a problem that has been experienced by both Mazda 3 and Mazda 6 - 2.2 Diesels and is documented on both forums. It is indeed as Al suggests diesel running back into the sump and is highly dangerous for the engine. I think the fact that it has not so far been reported on the C X-5 is due to the relative "newness" of the model.
As far as I am aware it is not limited to Mazda but most of the manufacturers who now use DPF technology.
-
wow I cant believe this is still a issue although it looks like with software change its sorted, I got rid of my diesel 6 due to dpf 1st gen. anyone with a diesel should read the posts very interesting.
-
Handbook indeed suggests that "if the oil level is close to or exceeds the "x" mark.....replace the engine oil"[/i] Thing is how close is close? Checking the oil level this morning I noticed it was above the high mark but below the "x" mark. And the handbook says "warm up the engine to normal operating temperature, turn it off and wait for at least 5 minutes" before checking the oil level - I was always told to check the level when the engine was cold and the oil had had time to drain back into the sump. Confusing :-\
-
Thought you might find this interesting.
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j124/willpower128/Forum%20Photo%20fixing/image_zpslrkh2sdl.jpg)
-
Monkeyhanger,
Many thanks, most interesting! Where did you find this printout, nothing like it in my handbook? I watch the oil level closely, it remains above full but below the X mark, my CX5 has now done 4,500 miles since new so hopefully I won't need to do anything other than have the car serviced (and of course the oil changed) in August.
Richard
-
Had this problem myself with a 2.2 diesel sport nav manual 175ps, at the time the vehicle was driving multiple short journeys of less than five miles. To my surprise the oil level was increasing over time.
After reading the manual properly and doing some internet research it became clear that diesel CX5 is not ideal for this type of driving. Multiple short journeys trigger forced regeneration of the DPF which can result in unburnt diesel finding it's way into the sump. At 7000 miles and 6 months the oil level had exceeded the x mark on the dipstick, I had the oil changed as advised in the owners manual.
Further research revealed that in the early days of this engine in Mazda 6 and CX5 this was a big problem resulting in a software update to reduce forced DPF regenerations. My advice would be to make sure you drive regular long runs where rpm is maintained above 2000 and check oil level monthly. It might be wise to change oil routinely every 6000miles in any case as oil diluted by diesel is bound to loose lubricating efficiency resulting in premature engine wear. If you only do short runs buy a petrol. The advice sheet from my previous post came from an Australian website. Hope this helps
Note I have now replaced my manual CX5 with an automatic due to gear lever vibration problems see post under ' rattle'.
-
My car's 14 months old, and has done 18500 miles. Last serviced at 9500 miles which is when I got it back in May 2014.
All well until yesterday when I got a very scary 'low oil pressure, engine damage possible, stop and check oil' type message. Was close to home to managed to get there with my heart in my mouth, and checked the oil. Very high, way above the X that marks the 'change oil' scenario.
Spoke to the local dealer this morning who advised not driving the car and phone Mazda Assist. Car has now been trailered off to the dealer and I have an Insignia sitting outside from Enterprise. Service from Mazda and Enterprise very good so far.
Now waiting for the dealer to call me back.
I suspect it's the dreaded DPF pumping oil and diesel into the sump. Stupid system. Service due in a couple of months anyway so if it is needed an oil change I might get them to do the service at the same time.
Most of my journeys are short, but it has it's fair share of 120-200 mile motorway and A road trips, hence 9000 miles in 10 months.
Will keep you posted.
-
Latest position is dealer rang to say oil was high (I knew that), and that software updates were required including a recall...nice of them to mention that.
The necessary oil change was to be ?139, so I opted for an early service (?279) as it'll need one in a couple of thousand miles anyway.
Off to pick it up this afternoon, and return the hated Insignia (by comparison with the CX5 it's noisy, rough and has the most uncomfortable seat I have ever experienced in 30+ years of driving all sorts of cars).
-
I have had many issues with fuel dilution in the sump and the oil pressure light coming on etc. I have a 175bhp AWD Sport Nav and have had it back for free service every 6 months. total of 4 in two years covering 24K. I drive the SUV 50 miles every day on mainly motorway at 60-70mph. The Manufacturer has upgraded the dipstick the software etc but the problem still persists. If the oil was not changed for free I would sell the car. Everything is great with the CX 5 especially the economy . I have averaged about 44MPG in the two years. However I have had the dreaded Oil pressure up twice and only 6K after a main service. I do not believ that my driving style is the problem. The problem is that Mazda do not know what to do so they fudge the dipstick level and tweek the software but we all know that the diluted sump will just make the oil too thin to pump!! and thus this is why the warning comes up. I am part of the which Consumer group and I am now considering placing an article in the magazine. I am also a time served Diesel Engineer with a degree in Mecahnical Engineering so they have trouble pulling the wool over my eyes. I would like to know how many of you are having the same experience and what support Mazda has given you? I did not expect to purchase a car advertised for annual service or 10K to have to do it every 6months or 6K which is basically what I have been doing. I look forward to hearing from you all. Almost forgot the economy gets better as the oil thins. Maybe the only positive!!!!
-
Hi - my story as detailed above. Will keep an eye on the oil level, and interested to see where you go next with this. Keep us updated on here if you would please. Thanks
-
Further update to the rising Oil Issue. My Car went in to have a brake caliper issue sorted (rear near side staying on), but also the oil pressure light came on whilst driving to get the repair. I have now had 3 free oil changes by Mazda and countless supposedly updates to the ECU !!! I have only done 24K and had 5 Oil Changes. I have been informed that the Oil Filter has been modified. Not sure how , I assume made finer?? Has anyone else had this new filter?
-
My advice would be to make sure you drive regular long runs where rpm is maintained above 2000 and check oil level monthly.
Note I have now replaced my manual CX5 with an automatic due to gear lever vibration problems see post under ' rattle'.
Interesting. How are you finding being able to drive above 2000rpm with the automatic? My car is still at the running-in stage and so not being hammered but even so I can't see running above 2000rpm being feasible in the long term due to traffic volumes and even at 2000rpm it's still licking along.
-
Current car just had first annual service at 11000 miles ( £177.96, basically oil change and software update ), no problems with rising oil levels as most journeys in excess of 10 miles allowing adequate DPF regeneration, automatic very smooth and no problem with vibration unlike my previous manual car. Now happy with CX-5 and returning 40.5mpg. You should be able to maintain 2000 rpm at motorway speeds but auto box does allow manual selection of lower gear if necessary, although that won't do much for mpg. A good motorway run about once a month should be enough but reading other posts it seems oil dilution is a big problem for some cars. Good luck.
-
Having read hundreds of posts on the whirlpool ausiie cx-5 forum, they reported getting rising oil on the early cars regaurdless of how the car was run.
In particular one chap with the problem spent most of his time on motorways.
I understand Mazda do a regen depending on miles regardless of the soot content, that timed regen period has been lengthened by a software update, they was also a batch of faulty sensors that had to be replaced.
There's no need to do any thrash down the motorway or anywhere else, just avoid excessive stop start city driving, petrol or diesel cars don't like that treatment. If you do get a DPF dash light on drive it over 1500rpm for 15 to 20mins until the light goes off.
I only do 7K miles a year, mainly short journeys, and I'm on my second DPF car, first one was an 2009 Xtrail, and I have NEVER had a DPF light up on the dash. So that's around 6 years driving with DPF.
I do get around 8mm oil rise with my Mazda, over a year but I don't see it as a problem with 7K oil changes.
I've recently had a remap and oil change end of July and the oil level is just over the full mark, so perhaps the last remap has improved things.
-
Just read this thread with interest.
For info, the fuel isn't recovered from the DPF into the sump. To get the DPF super heated and burn off the soot, fuel is injected into the cylinders on the exhaust stroke and it heats up the exhaust a bit like an afterburner on a jet. If the cycle is interrupted by stopping the engine, a pool of oil sits on top of the piston rings and can trickle through to the sump over time. It's only a teaspoon full but it adds up over miles.
-
It's also worth noting/remembering that the inherent problem with DPF's in vehicles, and hence the reason why other manufacturers have chosen the AdBlue route despite the inconvenience of needing an additional tank, is that in the process of burning off the soot particles what's left behind is ash which is not and can not be burned off. It is this build up of ash that eventually blocks up the filter rendering it unserviceable.
This has created a new industry that specialise in dismantling DPF's and cleaning them up. The cost for this varies according to vehicle make (DPF used) but can save up to 50% of the cost of a new filter. Whichever way one looks at it, far better to keep regens down to an absolute minimum.
-
It's also worth noting/remembering that the inherent problem with DPF's in vehicles, and hence the reason why other manufacturers have chosen the AdBlue route despite the inconvenience of needing an additional tank, is that in the process of burning off the soot particles what's left behind is ash which is not and can not be burned off. It is this build up of ash that eventually blocks up the filter rendering it unserviceable.
This has created a new industry that specialise in dismantling DPF's and cleaning them up. The cost for this varies according to vehicle make (DPF used) but can save up to 50% of the cost of a new filter. Whichever way one looks at it, far better to keep regens down to an absolute minimum.
I Dont think that ad-blue is used to burn off particulate matter, it is used to get the nitrous oxides down to the eu6 spec. Apparently skyactiv engines dont need it as the lower diesel compression's stop the high levels of NO.
All manufactures inject diesel to create an after burn to burn off particulate matter but some manufacturers inject it straight into the exhaust so none can get into the sump, but most inject it into the cylinders as Mazda does but i think due to improved software some dont regenerate as much, but most get some slight raising of the oil level. I think the reason Mazda have a problem is that the skyactiv engines probably have low friction piston rings for efficiency and they let more unburnt diesel past them during failed regens. My car does a regen every 2-300 miles even though most of my driving is long distance at motorway speeds and so i think that the Mazda doesn't do passive regens only active and as it is so regular i dont think that there is much measuring of the dpf to see if it needs a regen, the software just does one at regular intervals whether its needed or not, meaning that a lot more extra diesel is squirted in than is really needed.
-
Yes adblue is nothing to do with DPF cleaning.
-
It's also worth noting/remembering that the inherent problem with DPF's in vehicles, and hence the reason why other manufacturers have chosen the AdBlue route despite the inconvenience of needing an additional tank, is that in the process of burning off the soot particles what's left behind is ash which is not and can not be burned off. It is this build up of ash that eventually blocks up the filter rendering it unserviceable.
This has created a new industry that specialise in dismantling DPF's and cleaning them up. The cost for this varies according to vehicle make (DPF used) but can save up to 50% of the cost of a new filter. Whichever way one looks at it, far better to keep regens down to an absolute minimum.
I Dont think that ad-blue is used to burn off particulate matter, it is used to get the nitrous oxides down to the eu6 spec. Apparently skyactiv engines dont need it as the lower diesel compression's stop the high levels of NO.
All manufactures inject diesel to create an after burn to burn off particulate matter but some manufacturers inject it straight into the exhaust so none can get into the sump, but most inject it into the cylinders as Mazda does but i think due to improved software some dont regenerate as much, but most get some slight raising of the oil level. I think the reason Mazda have a problem is that the skyactiv engines probably have low friction piston rings for efficiency and they let more unburnt diesel past them during failed regens. My car does a regen every 2-300 miles even though most of my driving is long distance at motorway speeds and so i think that the Mazda doesn't do passive regens only active and as it is so regular i dont think that there is much measuring of the dpf to see if it needs a regen, the software just does one at regular intervals whether its needed or not, meaning that a lot more extra diesel is squirted in than is really needed.
Your car is the exact spec I would choose!
Yes, absolutely right, some vehicles use before and after pressure sensors to monitor blockage and spray fuel through a dedicated fifth injector to perform a regen. The Mazdas are not unique in diluting the oil, my mate sold his Mitzi diesel through ongoing problems. I suspect that the Mazda process based on mileage is a belt and braces job to help meet Euro V and VI.
I never use supermarket diesel which won't alter the regen periods but does avoid scrapping a DPF prematurely.
-
Having read hundreds of posts on the whirlpool ausiie cx-5 forum, they reported getting rising oil on the early cars regaurdless of how the car was run.
In particular one chap with the problem spent most of his time on motorways.
I understand Mazda do a regen depending on miles regardless of the soot content, that timed regen period has been lengthened by a software update, they was also a batch of faulty sensors that had to be replaced.
There's no need to do any thrash down the motorway or anywhere else, just avoid excessive stop start city driving, petrol or diesel cars don't like that treatment. If you do get a DPF dash light on drive it over 1500rpm for 15 to 20mins until the light goes off.
I only do 7K miles a year, mainly short journeys, and I'm on my second DPF car, first one was an 2009 Xtrail, and I have NEVER had a DPF light up on the dash. So that's around 6 years driving with DPF.
I do get around 8mm oil rise with my Mazda, over a year but I don't see it as a problem with 7K oil changes.
I've recently had a remap and oil change end of July and the oil level is just over the full mark, so perhaps the last remap has improved things.
Sums it all up perfectly. I've been running Diesel since 1989 and my last three (VW, Peugeot and Saab) have employed the DPF system. I cover about 10k per year and most journeys are short ones. Car has had the checks and modifications as per Mazda and hasn't missed a beat. No warnings to anticipate a DPF flush out of the system or anything. I do give it the odd blast to blow out the cobwebs though.
Let's face it the Germans and French are quite cute with diesel and Japan are still catching up but in my case works a treat.
Alex.
-
Anchorman
says "
I never use supermarket diesel which won't alter the regen periods but does avoid scrapping a DPF prematurely."
Who has ever changed a DPF prematurely due using useing super market fuel?
Its exactly the same fuel, only the additive pack varies and nobody actually knows the difference between the packs.
-
Anchorman
says "
I never use supermarket diesel which won't alter the regen periods but does avoid scrapping a DPF prematurely."
Who has ever changed a DPF prematurely due using useing super market fuel?
Its exactly the same fuel, only the additive pack varies and nobody actually knows the difference between the packs.
I take it you are implying that nobody ever changed a DPF as a result of using supermarket fuel? I can assure you that they did - lots and lots of people. All the tankers fill up in the same fuel terminal and the additives go in at the time of filling. Supermarkets don’t sell fuel cheaper than branded fuel stations because of loyalty or volume. It is because the additives are cheaper and as for the additives themselves, my mate is a fireman and he knows exactly what additives go into diesel.
Whether a car gets problems depends on what type of duty it does, what kind of engine oil is used and what type of system the vehicle uses to manage regeneration.
As for the diesel, supermarket fuel is weasel p*ss as far as I am concerned. Any of the branded fuel is somewhat better but the high grade fuels have double detergent as well as other enhancers. I use normal branded fuel and add Millers to it.
-
Anchorman
says "
I never use supermarket diesel which won't alter the regen periods but does avoid scrapping a DPF prematurely."
Who has ever changed a DPF prematurely due using useing super market fuel?
Its exactly the same fuel, only the additive pack varies and nobody actually knows the difference between the packs.
I take it you are implying that nobody ever changed a DPF as a result of using supermarket fuel? I can assure you that they did - lots and lots of people. All the tankers fill up in the same fuel terminal and the additives go in at the time of filling. Supermarkets don’t sell fuel cheaper than branded fuel stations because of loyalty or volume. It is because the additives are cheaper and as for the additives themselves, my mate is a fireman and he knows exactly what additives go into diesel.
Whether a car gets problems depends on what type of duty it does, what kind of engine oil is used and what type of system the vehicle uses to manage regeneration.
As for the diesel, supermarket fuel is weasel p*ss as far as I am concerned. Any of the branded fuel is somewhat better but the high grade fuels have double detergent as well as other enhancers. I use normal branded fuel and add Millers to it.
So you have a friend, a fireman that knows what the additive pack contains, when even those working in the industry don't often know what their own company uses let alone competitors.
The mind boggles, but i'm open minded and would be happy to read the additive pack contents when you post them.
The dearer fuels actually only benefit engines over high mileage, and offer nothing in fuels returns or performance worth mentioning considering the price difference.
-
Anchorman
says "
I never use supermarket diesel which won't alter the regen periods but does avoid scrapping a DPF prematurely."
Who has ever changed a DPF prematurely due using useing super market fuel?
Its exactly the same fuel, only the additive pack varies and nobody actually knows the difference between the packs.
I take it you are implying that nobody ever changed a DPF as a result of using supermarket fuel? I can assure you that they did - lots and lots of people. All the tankers fill up in the same fuel terminal and the additives go in at the time of filling. Supermarkets don’t sell fuel cheaper than branded fuel stations because of loyalty or volume. It is because the additives are cheaper and as for the additives themselves, my mate is a fireman and he knows exactly what additives go into diesel.
Whether a car gets problems depends on what type of duty it does, what kind of engine oil is used and what type of system the vehicle uses to manage regeneration.
As for the diesel, supermarket fuel is weasel p*ss as far as I am concerned. Any of the branded fuel is somewhat better but the high grade fuels have double detergent as well as other enhancers. I use normal branded fuel and add Millers to it.
So you have a friend, a fireman that knows what the additive pack contains, when even those working in the industry don't often know what their own company uses let alone competitors.
The mind boggles, but i'm open minded and would be happy to read the additive pack contents when you post them.
The dearer fuels actually only benefit engines over high mileage, and offer nothing in fuels returns or performance worth mentioning considering the price difference.
What a strange thing to say. You think that everyone that works in the Coca-Cola factory knows a list of everything in it do you? I said the fire service know, not that I would post a list of additives. If I obtained a list of additives they would mean nothing to you and you seem to know more about fuel additives than the fuel companies themselves who put them in to keep the fuel system clean and not only improve the mileage - according to you, even they don't know what they chuck in, let alone spend millions developing. I suggest you plod on using supermarket fuel, you don’t want to further boggle your mind.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x133/anchorman_02/929B0888-A943-4417-9D37-B215EF9687A7_zps4l9ln5gl.jpg)
-
I used to live and work on a small Mediterranean island which purchased it's raw fuel by the ship load, then had it shipped across to Italy for refinement into diesel and petrol before finally being shipped to the island. The fuel on the island at that time was heavily subsidized by the Government and consequently the refining process was of the minimum standard required so that they could actually sell it as diesel. For anyone familiar with the refining process, even if only on a basic level, or has visited a refinary - I have - will know for themselves that basic diesel is almost a waste product. One of the very first pieces of advice that I received upon taking up residence on the island was to add at least 1 bottle full of engine oil on each and every occasion that I filled the car up with diesel - a Mitsubishi Shogun - as the cheap diesel was barely good enough for running a tractor. In fact, just looking at the colour of the exhaust after a few weeks was enough to convince me that I should try to drive the car only when absolutely necessary. I even knew of one local inhabitant who, once a year at Christmas time, used to take the ferry across to Italy for the purpose of visiting his daughter and whilst there filled up his car (Jaguar) to the brim with petrol which wasn't much better. Upon return to the island the quantity in the tank was sufficient for him to run the car around the island at weekends whilst at all other times he used a second cheap runaround.
Now I'm not suggesting for one moment that Supermarket fuel sold in the UK or indeed in France etc is of an equally low standard but never-the-less I am personally convinced - true or not - that the fuel is lower quality than that sold on major forecourts such as Shell who are supplying fuel suitable for the season at the time of sale. For the reasons stated I would never dream of filling up with Supermarket fuel unless in an absolute emergency as the few cents in savings are not commensurate with the possible consequences. Please note that I say 'possible' because, having not been informed of any detailed analysis (say a Which comparison report) of Supermarket versus branded fuel, I simply don't know. The CX-5 cost me a fair sum of money and if I now have to search around in order to save a couple of cents off the fuel then I really should have purchased a bicycle LOL. All that said, I do of course respect that each and everyone of us possibly has a different view on the subject and is perfectly free to make up his or her mind. ;)
Edit: just a final point. Aral Ultimate gets rave reviews - if that's the correct term - over here in Germany.
-
I have to agree on the basis I did a experiment in my 08 diesel 6. Shell v power against asda. Maybe about 4 /5 years ago. Full tank of each 380 miles none stop. The result was v power gave nearly 5 miles to the gallon more. 43 versus 47.8. Not only that I felt that the car/ engine was a tad more responsive. I now use petrol but still use the top grade of fuel. Recently managing 39 mpg on the same run same route etc. But in a cx 5, now both cars serviced at Mazda dealer. A 2.0 litre petrol suv only 5 mpg behind a smaller diesel car using supermarket fuel. There's a lot more to additives and detergents than I realized after doing some research. I am only posting this because it's my experience and I want to share it. Not boasting try doing a similar experiment to see your own results. So the facts are simple the fuels are different in some way. I'm sure at the pumps there's a tiny little sticker say what percentage additives etc is added to the fuel. I will have a look on Thursday. And just to prove my theory again I will drive the 380 miles on asda fuel home and post results Friday. Just digital readouts not going for the exact scientific amount. I have worked in the oil industry for 26 years. I will ask a few around people who are more in the know than me.updated in fuel consumption thread.
-
Now that there are some responses that don't instantly dismiss my point about fuel quality without at least consideration, I'm quite prepared to discuss the work we did on Toyotas that were eating DPF (worse still, very expensive DNPRs that are a hybrid particulate filter come catalyser). I'll also explain how a fire fighter would know so much about additives but I've got to to work now so bear with me.
This is still very much on topic with this thread.
-
This is still very much on topic with this thread.
That is a matter for conjecture. "Oil Levels" is generally something associated with lubrication of either engine or transmission and is not immediately considered when discussing the vagaries of DPF's
In view of the multiple issues surrounding the Diesel variants and of course the DPF, I have created a child board here. http://mazdacx5forums.co.uk/index.php?board=55.0
Perhaps you might consider starting a dedicated topic relating to DPF's as there have been in the Mazda 3 and Mazda 6 forums.
Please continue any further discussions on these subjects in this new area.
-
This is still very much on topic with this thread.
That is a matter for conjecture. "Oil Levels" is generally something associated with lubrication of either engine or transmission and is not immediately considered when discussing the vagaries of DPF's
In view of the multiple issues surrounding the Diesel variants and of course the DPF, I have created a child board here. http://mazdacx5forums.co.uk/index.php?board=55.0
Perhaps you might consider starting a dedicated topic relating to DPF's as there have been in the Mazda 3 and Mazda 6 forums.
Please continue any further discussions on these subjects in this new area.
Actually, no, it is a matter of fact. How do you know that my next comment doesn’t tie together the relationship between oil level and DPF until I’ve written it? P.M. sent.
-
The new Child Board has been created to assist, by keeping relevant postings, specifically those concerning Diesels & DPF's, in a more convenient location so that members can follow a thread without it being diluted amongst other topics with much broader titles.
This way those members with Diesel variants will be able to target this area for information, which perhaps members with Petrol variants might not choose to be interested in.
Oil Levels in respect of Petrol engines, does not have any relevance to DPF's
-
This is still very much on topic with this thread.
That is a matter for conjecture. "Oil Levels" is generally something associated with lubrication of either engine or transmission and is not immediately considered when discussing the vagaries of DPF's
In view of the multiple issues surrounding the Diesel variants and of course the DPF, I have created a child board here. http://mazdacx5forums.co.uk/index.php?board=55.0
Perhaps you might consider starting a dedicated topic relating to DPF's as there have been in the Mazda 3 and Mazda 6 forums.
Please continue any further discussions on these subjects in this new area.
So off I go into the new area/thread and see it is locked although the opening post suggests "Please use this area to discuss any specific issues with the Diesel variants and the associated Diesel Particulate Filter."
Is it me?
-
That is a place marker. If you have anything to ask or to offer, please start a new topic. :)
-
That is a place marker. If you have anything to ask or to offer, please start a new topic. :)
OK but wasn't very clear. I'll probably get lost in the diversions re the subject in any case. Suspect the new topic will go off on a tangent as well though.
-
As it could be construed as misleading, that guidance post has been removed to save any confusion.
The area is the same as any other on the forum and is just awaiting population by members offering advice or asking a question. The only difference is that it is specifically provided for Diesel owners and the unique problems with Diesel vehicles and DPF's. :)