Author Topic: My personal opinion......  (Read 11342 times)

Offline Willpower

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2017, 03:14:44 pm »
Thank you Deeps for your in depth and lucid reply. I appreciate and respect all of the points that you have made especially the incident with your wife.

I suppose the truth of it is, that I still live in a time where this type of incident just didn't happen. That's not to say that the doors could not be locked manually as a conscious effort if you ever felt unsafe for the reasons you describe.  However having that free choice taken away from you by automation seems to do more than is necessary, possibly due to a certain amount of over-enthusiasm on the part of the manufacturers to sell the safety aspect of their cars. Although I suspect that there is little to no evidence available to prove the efficacy of this.

Moving on to the other point. I applaud your service carrying out an extremely harrowing job. I spent a good many years doing air crash investigation in the field and am still haunted by some of the "discoveries" made carrying out this task.
But I think you might have scored an own goal with your point b). Following on from my previous comments, let us assume that the front doors were unaffected by the collision (such as a rear end shunt or side swipe) but were still locked "automatically".  I take your point about the front seat passengers being in a fit state to effect a rear seat rescue.  But if you are fit and able, but can't open the doors, how would you feel ? ? ?  Especially if that child were injured.

And the raised eyebrows ?  Well my trusty implement ; tried and tested ; will smash the window and release a trapped passenger from a locked seatbelt.

I am heartened by the intelligent exchange we are having regarding this and wish that others would join in the conversation in order to broaden opinions. And whilst I accept that this is a free choice situation, whether the checks and balances weigh up or not, I personally will not be locking my doors whilst travelling.   

Offline Deeps

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2017, 04:07:44 pm »
But if you are fit and able, but can't open the doors, how would you feel ? ? ?  Especially if that child were injured.

   

Oh I understand all too clearly the point(s) that you are putting across, Will, but not having an actuary in the family I have to access risks or, to put it another way, the chances of certain events  happening, all for myself.
I have yet to hear/read of a case where the automatic door unlock function failed to operate following an accident. That's not to say there aren't instances of this happening of course but rather that I haven't heard of any cases whereas perhaps you have. Events of unrequested entry into the vehicle, an example of which I made earlier, are a common occurrence and so in my book the odds are tilted more in this direction.
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Offline Willpower

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2017, 05:23:58 pm »
Just as a matter of interest. Is there any way of manually unlocking the doors of the CX-5 (or in fact any other car that you know of) should there be any electrical failure after an accident which prevents the doors from unlocking automatically.

I have been doing a bit of research and have come across several examples where there was loss of life due to the inability to open the locked doors. Surely if the manufacturers are making this a common facility, then they should be supplying some form of manual override in the event of lost electrical power. 

Any thoughts ?

Offline BigAl

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2017, 07:12:07 pm »
Some interesting points there. I do know that, on some cars, pulling the door handle as you would normally will unlock and open a door. The CX5 doesn't do that. Whether that mentod is electrical or mechanical, I don't know. Also some cars with sun roofs have a manual crank which allows it to be open or closed in the event of power failure, but it's hidden and needs tools, usually.

Alan

Offline Willpower

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2017, 08:18:31 pm »
Thank you Alan.  During my research I found that there are certain cars (mainly American) where the doors are able to be opened after being automatically locked, but it is not a simple sequence, as in operating the handle just once as you would do in normal circumstances.
In the reports I have read, it sometimes requires operating the handbrake and then the door handle TWICE. All this whilst you are possibly in a state of shock and panic following a collision, or as in one case I read of, where the car drove into a lake and was filling with water. The occupants of that incident drowned because they couldn't get out. 

Whilst I can understand that some people would, for whatever reason feel safer with the doors locked, I still feel that as a competent human being, I can make that conscious decision and not have a corporate designer make it for me.

Offline Deeps

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 10:44:49 am »
Just as a matter of interest. Is there any way of manually unlocking the doors of the CX-5 (or in fact any other car that you know of) should there be any electrical failure after an accident which prevents the doors from unlocking automatically.



Um, my CX-5 model doesn't come with the automatic door locking feature sadly and one has to do this manually.
My previous VW Touran, in common with all VW models that I am aware of,  has this feature which is accessible via the OBC  allowing for both locking and unlocking of the doors to be programmed separately. Once set to lock automatically, all doors will lock when a speed of 5mph is attained and will remained locked until the ignition is turned off and the key removed. However, these are not deadlocks which means that the automatic feature can be overridden by a double pull on the door release handle.
It would appear that the automatic door lock mechanism is programmed into the airbag module at some stage because the doors automatically unlock upon any airbag being activated.
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Offline Willpower

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2017, 12:28:28 pm »
.......... which means that the automatic feature can be overridden by a double pull on the door release handle.
It would appear that the automatic door lock mechanism is programmed into the airbag module at some stage because the doors automatically unlock upon any airbag being activated.

This falls in with my research which indicates that if there is a manual override then it is reliant upon multiple operations of the door handle and then possibly the input from another vehicle system i.e handbrake and /or airbag.  Quite how that works if the airbag has not been activated, I'm not sure. In the case I mentioned above relating to the submergence, there was no indication that the airbags operated. This would also be true if the car were engulfed following an engine fire. 
Sorry to be dramatic but as you say you have to do a risk assessment each time you drive. What actions you take to mitigate those risks, are personal and individual.

I'm still to be convinced that being automatically locked into a steel structure travelling at speed, without documented evidence of the benefits to this, is a good idea. 

Offline ColinX-5

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 12:54:00 pm »
[quote author=Willpower

I'm still to be convinced that being automatically locked into a steel structure travelling at speed, without documented evidence of the benefits to this, is a good idea. 
[/quote]
Yes I agree, to manually lock all doors with the pres of one button while stoped  could be very good, but for doors to be locked while moving ! WHY ?

Offline Deeps

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 01:09:07 pm »
However, these are not deadlocks which means that the automatic feature can be overridden by a double pull on the door release handle.
It would appear that the automatic door lock mechanism is programmed into the airbag module at some stage because the doors automatically unlock upon any airbag being activated.

To be precise I should have added that additionally the VW range of vehicles also have a manual door switch (rocker type marked with a lock clasp to indicate locked/unlocked) which functions pretty much the same as the manual door switch on the CX-5 - or at least on mine anyway.

When the doors are set to lock automatically via the OBC this activates the switch and in reality it is this switch that fails to the unlock mode when (a) any airbag is activated (b) the ignition is switched off and key removed (c) door handle pulled twice and (d) rocker switch set to the unlock position (unlocked clasp).

In the real world I would perhaps suggest that along with pulling the door release grip to exit a vehicle under normal conditions unless one drives with the doors open of course lol, it would be a normal reaction to pull on it repeatedly in an emergency or if the door was simply stiff etc. I know from personal experience that in summer when the rubber door seals are softer the doors tend to stick slightly and a couple of pushes is sometimes required. Just for clarity - we live in a modernised but old building with entrance doors that were constructed in the days before straightedges and spirit levels etc. In summer one pull on the door is enough to open it, in winter when the door swells somewhat it tends to be more of a tight fit and sometimes a couple of good pulls are required to open the door. This is an action that is done subconsciously and it would be my submission that in an emergency and perhaps panicking a little bit, one wouldn't simply give up should the door fail to open on the first shove and it would be a natural sequence of events to pull on the release handle several times. Therefore the requirement to pull the door release handle twice as is the case with VW's would be more or less a normal reaction anyway in an emergency.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:15:21 pm by Deeps »
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Offline Deeps

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2017, 01:14:00 pm »

Yes I agree, to manually lock all doors with the pres of one button while stoped  could be very good, but for doors to be locked while moving ! WHY ?

I'd tend to agree with the first part of that statement, Colin, and have you considered submitting the idea to say one of your best selling motoring magazines for a future article/discussion?
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Offline Willpower

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2017, 02:17:43 pm »
Yes I agree, to manually lock all doors with the pres of one button while stoped  could be very good, but for doors to be locked while moving ! WHY ?

I also have a Mazda3 which has the option to centrally lock all doors from a press on the fob button at any time, even whilst on the move if needs be.   However and very importantly there is an accessible lock button  (which is a mechanical link, not electrical,  directly to the door lock)   next to the handle on the door which releases that door if required.





Offline ColinX-5

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2017, 02:45:38 pm »
On the 2015 CX5 sport that is the button i can use to close/open all doors.  8)

Offline Deeps

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2017, 03:33:51 pm »
Are you 100% sure that the mechanical lock button that you have highlighted, Will, isn't in fact electrically operated by a relay? The only sure-fire way of establishing this is to lock all the doors with the fob as earlier described which, if it's the same as the VW, operates that mechanical door lock, switch off the engine and then see can you open the door(s) both from the inside and the outside.

If operation of the fob isn't in fact acting on the mechanical lock button, but is independent of it, then I'd be very interested to hear how exactly the system works because my first thought would lead me to believe that there must be two totally independent locking systems available both of which should of course be visible by inspection of the relevant door face.
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Offline Willpower

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2017, 03:59:54 pm »
Deeps,   You are correct, there are two independent systems.  The operation of that button will lock or unlock the door either by operation of an electrical circuit i.e the fob. Or mechanically by a drop link situated in the door void. It is effective even without electrical power.

Unlike Colin's, from what he says,   the button on the my 3 will only manually operate that particular individual door, not all four. There are similar buttons on all the other doors.

But then my Mazda3 does not have automatic lock in.  Thank goodness.

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Re: My personal opinion......
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2017, 03:59:54 pm »